加密飞行 Vol.8 | 一个务实的乌托邦设计家决定出走：Niklas＆Vitalia

“我并不清楚一个Pop-up City应该期待什么。不过，这并不是最主要的问题。”

💡Editor's note/编者按

这场访谈完成于去年Edge Esmeralda期间，健谈的Niklas深入分享了他对"Pop-up City"与网络国家新型治理模式的见解。他将传统政府视为过去时代的遗迹，希望运用特殊经济区、代币化与成熟法律框架等现有机制，迅速启动实验，并为城市发展注入前所未有的弹性与活力；这让我们眼前一亮。与那些仅流于空谈理想的人不同，Niklas的讲话充满务实与人情味——他提议运用和改良已有的成熟机制，而非创造某些“全新”事物。推动这场变革的关键，在于充满活力的在地创业者与科技社群，正是这些真实而有温度的人，将成为未来城市治理革命的动力源。

在日新月异的Crypto世界，时间的单位被研磨地更加细小，一年足以让任何人事物天翻地覆。今天阅读这篇访谈时，我们仍可从中觑见某种乐观的实践精神，这或许才是那时将Niklas推向幻想小城Vitalia的最初和最终。今天的Infinita City又将如何诠释这些对理想城市的话语？

假如在地球上的某个角落再次偶遇Niklas，我们会再问问他。

此文是「加密飞行」专栏首辑访谈策划之一，来自友邻社区 SocialLayer 的 Eggy 和 Jiang。作为一群经常在各地巡游的 “飞行员”，他们所带来的独特视野，正是「加密飞行」所想要展示的：一群从过去降落，置身于此刻，并渴望着挑战和探索更好未来的远航者。我们期待着这种展示，能够飞跃语言与物理距离的障壁，成为未来加密公民同现实之间的桥梁。

In the interview, which took place last year at the Edge Esmeralda, the talkative Niklas shared his insights on Pop-up City and the new governance model of the cyber state. He sees traditional government as a relic of a bygone era, and wants to use existing mechanisms such as special economic zones, tokenization, and mature legal frameworks to quickly launch experiments and inject unprecedented resilience and vitality into urban development; It blew our minds. Unlike those who merely talk about their ideals, Niklas speaks with a pragmatic and human touch - he proposes to use and improve established mechanisms rather than create something "entirely new." The key to driving this change is the dynamic local entrepreneurs and technology community, it is these real and warm people, will become the power source of the future urban governance revolution.

In the ever-changing world of Crypto, the units of time are ground ever smaller, and a year is enough to turn anyone's life upside down. Reading this interview today, we can still see a certain optimism in the practical spirit, which may be the first and final push Niklas to the fantasy town of Vitalia. How will Infinita City interpret these words about the ideal city today?

If we run into Niklas again somewhere on Earth, we'll ask him again.

This article is one of the first series of interviews for the "Crypto Flight" column, curated by the SocialLayer community members Eggy and Jiang. As a group of "pilots" often journeying across different places, they bring a unique perspective—exactly what "Crypto Flight" aims to showcase: a group of voyagers descending from the past, living in the present, and yearning to challenge and explore a better future. We hope this showcase can transcend barriers of language and physical distance, becoming a bridge between future crypto citizens and the realities they face.

Social Layer × Uncommons
Reporter: Eggy＆Jiang
Translator: Maymay
Edit:0614

About

Niklas
Operating under Infinita City (https://www.infinita.city/) now
Continuing the Vitalia mission with the same team
Operations and partnership with Prospera ZEDE

Jiang
Founder of Social Layer

Eggy
Ph.D Candidate in Design for Social Innovation
Contributer of Social Layer

Vitalia：梦开始的地方
Vitalia:Dream Start

Niklas

Pop-up City是对应领域中真正的创新发展，它能够在不同地点启动发展，使高度一致的社区在指定地区安家，并开始与政府或司法管辖区进行谈判，寻求长期居住、创业、获得监管豁免和优惠。这种策略为政治性的发展奠定了基础。这可能代表我们行业中的一个重大创新，因为以前那些类似Prospera或Vitalia的项目，往往都是从复杂的政府谈判开始，涉及大量合同、法律协议和资金问题。由于社区在这些领域的能力不足，这就使得吸引社区参与变得具有挑战性。然而，社区需要持续激发内部的热情。

I think Pop-up City is a great new innovation in our space. It can kickstart development in different places that allow communities highly aligned on the communities to go on land and start to negotiate with governments or jurisdictions for long-term establishment, obtaining regulatory exemptions and advantages. Such approaches serve as an initial strategy for political development. I believe it could represent a major innovation in the space because previously, projects like Prospera or Vitalia began with government negotiations and had to negotiate substantial country and legal agreements and secure considerable funding. Years later, it became challenging to engage communities because they were not proficient in this area. However, communities need to excel in these aspects. There were some other projects that excelled at energizing communities.

与政府的长期谈判如果没有可见成果，就有可能会难以为继。然而，通过引入Pop-up cities，这个过程可以变得更高效。这方式允许你与有潜在协议可能的现有管辖区接触，使项目得以启动。如果某个计划在一个地点不成功，你可以轻松地在另一个Pop-up city尝试，这与创业公司通常从小规模、低成本的尝试开始类似。因此，它可以有效地作为开发新城市和新管辖区的最小可行产品（MVP）。

Negotiations with governments that take years can make it hard to keep momentum without visible results. However, with Pop-up cities, the process becomes more efficient. This approach allows you to engage with existing jurisdictions that show potential for agreements, enabling you to start projects. If an initiative doesn't succeed in one location, you can simply try another in a different Pop-up city, similar to how startups often begin with small, low-cost efforts. Therefore, I believe that Pop-up cities could effectively act as the minimum viable product（MVP） for developing new cities and jurisdictions.

我认为在Zuzalu，（关于MVP版本的尝试）这一概念并不清晰，当时它更像是一个实验。然而，这一概念确实在Zuzalu中得到了培养。我从网络国家和新城市方面引入了大量知识，此外，黑山的政府对这些概念几乎完全不感兴趣，因此他们持更开放的态度。至于我们对这些概念的进展，以及它们是否仍然在被延续下去，我并不十分确定。我们之中的大多数人之前可能并没有对这些工作有完全的准备。但即将到来的项目就不一样了。在阿根廷，我们开始与Protocol Labs合作，计划在八月建立一个Pop-up city，并将专门讨论经济特区。Zanzalu和Zanzibar也同样有正在进行的项目，这里的Edge City位于Esmeralda，也将发展成为一个很酷的特许城市。

I believe the message or the concept wasn't very clear during the Zuzalu phase; it was primarily experimental. However, that idea was certainly fostered through Zuzalu, where I contributed extensive knowledge about network states and new cities. Moreover, the government of Montenegro, which exhibits almost no interest in these concepts, consequently maintains an open stance towards them.

Regarding our certainty about the progress of these concepts, it's not entirely clear whether they are still being pursued. I suspect that many of us were not fully prepared to understand what implementing these ideas would entail. Yet, for the upcoming projects, we might be ready. For instance, Argentina is involved in collaborating with Protocol Labs. They are planning to establish a Pop-up city in August, focusing specifically on special economic zones. Similarly, Zanzalu and Zanzibar have ongoing projects, and Edge City here in Esmeralda is also slated for charter city development.

在黑山时，我负责让Vitalia“跑起来”。那时候我不确定自己是否已经深入了解过这个领域，但Vitalia确实是对Balaji提出的“网络国家”概念的直接响应，而这一领域正是我一直积极参与的。我的工作与这个领域紧密相关，涉及新的治理模式、网络国家、新城市等类似概念。我因此被这一方向吸引，并通过这个视角参与了Zuzalu。当时已经有长寿领域的人对网络国家和特殊司法辖区产生了兴趣，这很合理，尽管我并不清楚从一个Pop-up City应该期待什么。不过，这并不是最主要的问题。

In Montenegro, I run Vitalia. I am not certain if I had read about it by then, but he did it explicitly in response to Balaji's network state idea, an area in which I have been actively involved. Consequently, my work relates closely to this field. This involves new governance models, network states, new cities, and similar concepts. Thus, I was drawn in that direction and subsequently became involved with Zuzalu through this perspective. Members of the longevity community were already expressing curiosity about topics such as network states and special jurisdictions. It was quite logical, although I was uncertain what to expect from a Pop-up City. However, that was not the main issue. This was how I was getting into it.

Eggy 

在你加入这个初创社会之前和之后，你的观点有何变化？你是否认为当前的状况比以前更切合实际？你对服务他人的看法有所改变吗？

Have there been any changes in your deep involvement with this startup society from before to now? What are the differences? Do you think it's more practical now than when you were serving people?

Niklas

当然，最初几乎没有人预料到数月的停摆会在全球范围内产生如此深远的影响。人们可能会听到爱沙尼亚政府或卢旺达政府在取得进展——这类报道也许会出现在《经济学人》上，看起来似乎与我们的现实十分遥远。但为什么不试一试？我可以制定一些在现实世界中真正可行的策略，而这也确实实现了。因此，这种认知往往是在深入参与后才逐渐形成的。我认为，最关键的启示在于意识到这些想法确实存在且具备可行性，这类经验往往是成功的关键。

At first, almost no one anticipated that months of standstill would have such a profound global impact. People might hear about progress in Estonia or Rwanda—reports that may appear in The Economist and seem quite removed from our everyday reality. But I thought, why not give it a try? I could create strategies that could actually be implemented in the real world, and that has indeed come to pass. This kind of insight often develops only after deep involvement. I believe the most valuable realization is understanding that these ideas truly exist and are feasible; such experiences are often the key to success.

重塑治理的传统
Reshaping the Traditions of Governance

Eggy

你认为实现pop-up city面对的最大挑战是什么？

What do you think is the biggest challenge in turning this potential of pop-up city into reality?

Niklas

这与现今政府或民族国家的运作方式有关，它们本质上是18和19世纪的遗迹。这些实体仍然是世界上最强大的力量，但它们是为不同的时代而设计的。它们越来越多地被互联网以多种方式所干扰。这一概念在《主权个人》一书中有很好的预测性描述，它准确地预测了这些变化，为我们提供了关于新形式的治理及其相关风险的信息，包括可能出现的混乱和无序。正如越来越明显的那样，许多民族国家越来越难以履行其角色，可能导致民事和社会动荡。此外，我们通常对这些挑战准备不足，也缺乏全面的应对策略。这主要是因为我们习惯了传统的运作方式。这正是我从事当前工作的原因。

I believe this relates to the way governments or nation-states currently operate. Essentially, they are remnants of the 18th and 19th centuries, which is evident in various aspects. These entities remain the most powerful in the world, yet they were designed for different eras. They are increasingly being disrupted by the internet in numerous ways. This concept is well articulated in the book "The Sovereign Individual: Mastering the Transition to the Information Age," which predicts these changes quite accurately, informing us about new forms of governance and associated risks, including potential chaos and disorder. As is becoming apparent, many nation-states are progressively less capable of fulfilling their roles, leading to potential civil and social unrest.

Moreover, we are generally unprepared for these challenges and lack comprehensive strategies to address them. This is largely because we are accustomed to traditional ways of functioning. This is precisely why I am engaged in my current endeavors.

Eggy 

你提到了许多关于政府的问题，并且也与一些政府进行了交流，那么你认为他们对这部分有何看法？你认为我们能做些什么来说服他们？

Since you mentioned various issues regarding the government and have spoken with some of them, what do you think their opinion is on this matter? For instance, what do you think we can do to persuade them?

Niklas

你必须从他们的角度出发来接触他们。许多新科技，尤其是加密技术，可能对他们来说难以理解或者没有吸引力，关键是以一种能明确展示给他们看到的好处的方式进行沟通，关注他们真正关心的事项，比如如何在不妨碍他们的政治和行政目标的同时，推动他们的政策议程。在这种情况下，我认为我们所使用的一些模式，特别是经济区或普通法这样基于成熟和经过测试的原则的模式，如特定司法管辖区的企业设立，这些是有效的。

这些方法经受了时间的考验，我们并不是以一种激进或乌托邦的心态来接近这些问题，而是在利用已经证明有效的原则。至于是否需要使用专业术语，也许有时需要，但总的来说，简单直接的方式是最好的。要真正创新，应该选择性地关注最重要的领域。然而，坚持已经试验和测试过的原则也很重要。例如，代币化非常有用，因为它提供了一种抵御中心化控制的方式，促进了审查制度的抵抗，同时在重新思考治理方面也是有效的。

You need to engage with them starting from their perspective. Many in the fields of new technology and cryptocurrency may not fully grasp these concepts. It's crucial to communicate in a way that clearly demonstrates the benefits to them, focusing on what they truly care about, such as advancing their careers without jeopardizing their current positions.

In this context, I believe that some of the models we employ, particularly economic zones or common law, which are based on well-established and tested principles like business incorporation in specific jurisdictions, are effective. 

These methods have stood the test of time, and we are not approaching this with a radical or utopian mindset but are utilizing proven principles. Is it necessary to use technical jargon? Perhaps, but generally speaking, a straightforward approach is best. To truly innovate, you should selectively focus on the areas that matter most. However, it's also important to adhere to tried and tested principles. Tokenization, for instance, is very useful as it offers a way to guard against centralized control and promotes censorship resistance while being effective in rethinking governance.

此外，公司法以其灵活性和竞争力而闻名，拥有丰富的治理经验。它是动态的，并且随着时间的推移已经发展得非常好，因此没有必要完全重新发明这些方法。这是许多人正在逐渐意识到的。此外，我们应该避免过早地去中心化，这是长时间以来学到的一课。通常，在根据以往经验彻底改变一切之前，模仿既定的最佳实践是有益的。

In addition, corporate law, known for its flexibility and competitiveness, has extensive experience with governance. It is dynamic and has evolved significantly over time, so there is no need to completely reinvent these approaches. This is a realization that many are coming to. Moreover, we should avoid premature decentralization, a lesson well learned over time. Often, it's beneficial to emulate established best practices before radically changing everything based on prior experiences.

Eggy 

你担心政府变化吗？

Will you fear the government change? 

Niklas

我们至少拥有一个中立的政府。我们达成的协议确保政府不会干预我们的运作，这就是我们所需要的全部。我们不需要额外的支持；我们主要关心的是避免紧缩政策。特殊经济区提供的法律框架已经足够。我们不需要他们的任何进一步支持，只需要维护法律权利和承诺。

We at least have a neutral government. The agreement we've reached ensures that the government does not interfere with our operations, which is all we require. We don't need additional support; our main concern is to avoid austerity measures. The legal framework provided by the special economic zones is sufficient. We do not require any further support from them, just the maintenance of legal rights and commitments. 

Eggy 

你认为我们需要更多的企业家，目前的障碍不在于政府或社会结构，而是我们需要新的力量，这一点很有趣。

You believe we need more entrepreneurs and the current obstacles are not related to the government or societal structures, but rather to the need for new forces. This is an interesting point.

Niklas

我认为阻碍许多人的一个主要误区是对政府反对或可能被排斥的恐惧，他们将其视作一种常见的商业风险。然而，有方法可以对待这些风险：例如建立适当的法律框架或保护措施。不可否认，这些措施的教育成本非常高，需要自行学习以有效地应对这些挑战，但有了像Prospera这样的成功模型，其中规定了固定成本，教育负担就会降低。由于我们已经制定了标准化的程序和提供了资源，我认为现在是作为建设者进入该领域的理想时机。

I think one of the biggest misconceptions holding many people back is the fear of governmental opposition or the possibility of being excluded, which they see as merely a business risk. This should be treated as such. There are ways to mitigate this, such as establishing the appropriate legal frameworks or protections. Admittedly, these measures come at a high educational cost. You must educate yourself to navigate these challenges effectively, but with successful models like Prospera, where fixed costs are defined, the educational burden is reduced. Since we have standardized procedures and resources available, I believe now is an opportune time to enter the field as a builder.

寻找同伴：触达在地社区
Finding Allies: Reaching Local Communities

Eggy 

除了政府，整个生态系统里还有很多其他的利益相关者。你认为我们还需要与哪些方面打交道？这些方面会如何影响你所做的事情？

There are many different stakeholders in this whole ecosystem besides the government. Who else do you think we need to engage with? How might these parties influence what you are doing?

Niklas

我们在许多项目中最重要的接触点是本地的初创企业社区或科技经济体。这已经成为通过互联网发生变革的关键动力之一。因此，在世界任何地方，即使是在较小或发展水平较低的国家，你也可以找到一个技术社区。这些人在文化上往往比你自己国家的大多数人更与你接近。

I believe that for many of these projects, our most crucial point of engagement, particularly for implementing the changes we seek, lies with local startup communities or technical communities. This has become one of the key dynamics transforming through the internet.

Thus, anywhere in the world, even in smaller or less developed countries, you can find a tech community. These individuals are often culturally more aligned with you than many people in your own country.

Eggy 

Jiang也提到过他参与类似的项目时，感觉和那些人很亲切，甚至比他回到家乡的某个小镇还要熟悉。这有点疯狂，你在远离家乡的地方遇到了一些非常志同道合的人。可当你回到家乡时，你却感到像是去了另一个国家。

Jiang also mentioned that when he participated in similar subsidy projects, he felt a close connection with the people involved, even more so than in a small town back in his hometown. It's somewhat crazy, to meet people who share your values and interests in a place far from home. Yet, when you return to your hometown, it feels like you've gone to another country.

Niklas

我将大部分时间和精力投入到特定类型的社区。例如在洪都拉斯，我关注当地的创业和加密货币社区。我认为，要想让未来的项目成功，专注于这些社区是我最强烈的建议。以阿根廷为例，他们在培养这些群体方面做得非常好。看起来他们的项目扎根于当地的加密社区和技术社区，并最初得到了阿根廷和加密货币社区的广泛支持。

I devote most of my time and effort to certain types of communities. In Honduras, for example, it is the local startup and cryptocurrency community. I believe that for any future projects to succeed, focusing on these communities would be my strongest recommendation. Consider Argentina; they excel in nurturing these groups. It appears that their efforts are deeply rooted and initially supported extensively by both the Argentinian and cryptocurrency communities. That is indeed a positive development.

Eggy 

我与许多人谈到过Vitalia，主要是因为我的研究涉及城市。我发现目前已经有了一些进展——人们正在积极合作，并且在政府的自上而下的支持下工作。他们努力创建一个协作的环境，这是其他社区中不常见的。不像那些关注AI的人，目前很少有人关注如何实际应用AI来完成特定任务。

I have spoken to many people about Vitalia, primarily because my research involves cities. I've noticed that there has already been some progress—people are actively collaborating and working with top-down support from the government. They are striving to create a cooperative environment, which is uncommon in other communities. Unlike those who care about AI, few people are currently focused on the practical applications of AI for accomplishing specific tasks.

Niklas

AI与长寿或加密领域不同，它面临的限制较少。长寿和加密领域都面临固有的挑战：加密涉及金融监管，而长寿领域则需面对健康监管、药物审批等。然而，AI类似于软件，本质上是在没有太多监管的环境下发展起来的。然而，现在人们开始尝试对其进行监管，这可能会影响到未来人们如何接触和使用AI。归根结底，还是取决于每个领域所遇到的限制。

AI, unlike fields like longevity or crypto, doesn’t face as many limitations. Both longevity and crypto inherently face challenges: crypto contends with financial regulations, while longevity faces health regulations, drug approvals, and the like. In contrast, AI, much like software, was essentially born regulation-free. However, now there is an effort to introduce regulations, which might eventually influence how people engage with it. Ultimately, it all comes down to the limitations each field encounters.

Eggy 

你觉得在基础设施层面上还缺少什么吗？

Great, cool. Do you think something is missing at the infrastructure level?

Niklas

我们绝对需要保险。它可能看起来是一个乏味的行业，但我已经开始认为它是最有趣的行业之一。它涉及分析和量化未来的可能性，这非常令人兴奋。从企业家的角度来看，它呈现了一个吸引人的商业模型，因为其固有的长期承诺和可量化的结果。尽管我还没有从保险公司那里吸引到关于采取什么具体保险行动的重大兴趣。然而，我决心进一步探索这个领域，因为似乎每个人都希望以某种方式涉足保险。

In our case, we definitely need insurance. Initially, it may seem like a dull industry, but I have come to view it as one of the most intriguing industries. This is because it involves analyzing and quantifying future possibilities, which I find extremely exciting. Additionally, from an entrepreneurial perspective, it presents a compelling business model with its inherent long-term commitments and measurable outcomes.

Therefore, insurance is the key industry I am eager to engage with, although I have not yet attracted significant interest from insurance companies about what specific insurance actions to take. However, I am determined to explore this further, as everyone seems to want to engage with insurance in some capacity.

技术变革的创造型社会
A Creative Society of Technological Transformation

Eggy 

在这之前你从事的是什么工作？当时你对新型社会有何设想？

What were you doing before you got this idea and what was your imagination in the new society at that time?

Niklas

激发我兴趣的契机，是2022年3月底首次访问Prospera。还没有过去太久。那时我被许多想法所吸引，但并没有发现一个实际的参与途径。对我来说，那些只是关于新城市的理论和想法。然而后来我意识到，这些正在逐渐变为现实。此外，还有一些旧的空间一直在尝试这些理念，其中有些尝试已持续数十年。目前已经有Prospera、Minicircle、Ciudad Morazan以及洪都拉斯的特区等成功案例，Balaji提出的网络国家概念也为长期以来的辩论添油加火，引起了广泛的关注。Vitalik和Zuzalu也是如此。因此，我认为这正是我们当前所处的阶段，对这一点的反思仿佛是在观察自然规律。

What initiated my interest was my first visit to Prospera at the end of March 2022. That wasn't very long ago, and I found many of the ideas appealing, yet I didn't discern a practical method to engage with them. Initially, it appeared to me merely as a theory about new cities. However, I then realized that it was manifesting. Moreover, there is an established area that has been experimenting with some of these concepts for decades. Now you can look at successes such as Prospera, the Minicircle, Ciudad Morazan, and the zones in Honduras, and also how Balaji’s network state emerged, fueling debates and drawing significant attention. Zuzalu and Vitalik have also made an impact. Thus, I believe that is where we currently stand. This moment could be considered a reflective point, akin to observing natural phenomena.

Eggy 

你目前负责管理什么项目？你对此有何期望？回想你之前深度参与这个领域时的期待，你认为这些期待已经实现了吗？

What projects are you currently managing? What are your expectations for them? Reflecting on your initial deep involvement in this field, do you think those expectations have been met?

Niklas

当你进入一个新领域时，往往难以预见未来，特别是在这种前所未有的领域。这就像2010年初次涉足比特币市场一样，无人能确知将面临什么，充满了对未来的设想，尽管现实中尚未有太多具体成果，可能涉及的人数从几百到几千甚至数十亿不等。一切都在显示，像比特币和加密货币这样的创新是行得通的。

When you enter a new space, it's hard to predict what lies ahead, particularly when it was like entering the Bitcoin market in 2010. No one truly knows what they are getting into. It's filled with visions of what the future might hold, though tangible results might still be scarce. The participants could range from hundreds to thousands, or even billions. Everything starts to demonstrate that innovations like Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies are viable.

作为一种强大的驱动力，技术正在推动我们向前发展。从过去的经验中，我们已经学会了如何构建和扩大新技术的规模，即使没有具体的指导方针或操作手册。这使得通过互联网对软件创业工具的可访问性得到了提高，使越来越多的人能够使用这些技术。

We have powerful drivers such as technology that propel us forward. We have now learned how to build and scale new technologies from numerous past experiences, even without specific guidelines or playbooks. This has allowed for increased accessibility to tools for software entrepreneurship via the internet, enabling a growing number of people to use such technologies. Consider how many people globally could potentially operate as tech startup founders. What would be your estimate?

让我们考虑一下，全球有多少人可能成为科技创业公司的创始人？乐观地估计，可能是1%，悲观地说，是0.1%，这相当于大约700万人，基于9500万有能力创业的成年人来估计。而目前可能最多几十万人在进行创业活动。这展示了巨大的潜力，一旦这些计划被证明成功，它们通常会带来指数级的变化。这就像比特币和区块链，一旦你确定了杠杆点，就可以在非常短的时间内引发快速而显著的变化。我相信我们可以实现更多，特别是如果我们能在这些新城市的特殊经济区等地推动技术发展的话。

Optimistically, perhaps 1%, pessimistically, 0.1%, which equates to about 7 million people, give or take, based on an estimated population of 95 million adults capable of starting a business. How many are currently engaged in startups? Perhaps a few hundred thousand at most. This demonstrates the immense potential that exists. Once these initiatives prove successful, they often bring about exponential changes. Like Bitcoin and Blockchain, once you identify the leverage points, rapid and significant changes can occur in a very short time. I believe we can achieve even more, particularly if we manage to foster technological development in special economic zones within these new cities and beyond.

建设一个创意乌托邦
Building a Creative Utopia

Niklas

许多新兴地区面临的一个主要挑战是获取负担得起的能源。寻找能源解决方案虽直观但依然是我们最大的挑战之一。能源成本高昂，因此小规模解决方案至关重要；我们需要的技术必须真正有益，特别是像电池存储这样的技术，它们提供了移动性并需要长时间的发展。如果我们能开发出更模块化、更经济的解决方案，将有很大的技术杠杆作用。

在加密货币领域，我试图在Vitalia做的工作是让现实世界的资产真正运作起来。其中最大的挑战之一是管辖权问题，资产常常未被当地管辖区认可。但在Prospera可以轻松地实现这一点。这非常有价值，尤其是如果这些司法管辖区能够共享法律背景或制定允许现实资产代币化的法律框架。因为这基本上可以让全球的加密社区更轻松地为这些项目提供资金。这可以解决一些非常简单的问题，比如能够用加密货币启动一个建筑项目，这在当前几乎是无法实现的，因为几乎没有房地产开发商愿意接受这种支付方式。

One major challenge in many new regions is securing affordable energy. Indeed, finding energy solutions is intuitive yet remains one of our most significant hurdles. Energy costs are high, thus smaller-scale solutions are crucial; we need technology that is genuinely beneficial, especially technologies like battery storage that offer mobility and require extensive development over time. If we can develop more modular and cost-effective solutions, there will be considerable technological leverage.

Regarding my work with cryptocurrency at Vitalia, I am aiming to make real-world asset management viable. A significant obstacle is jurisdiction; assets are often not recognized by local jurisdictions. However, in Prospera, this is not an issue, which could be highly valuable. It allows jurisdictions to share legal practices and codes, facilitating easier funding by the global crypto community for projects. This often involves straightforward transactions, such as using cryptocurrency for payments, which currently remains a challenge due to regulatory and practical constraints.

这一点非常重要，因为涉及到资本形成时的简单支付问题，资金受到严格监管。当接收方使用法定货币时，附加加密货币变得非常困难。但如果双方都使用加密货币，就简化了过程。如果能够制定更灵活、宽松的基金形成规定，这将是一项重要的改革。

法律系统在很多方面类似于应用于现实世界加强版的软件，但不仅仅是理论上的规则集合，它在现实中具有实际的影响力和执行力，这可以看作是技术带来的巨大杠杆作用。我们还可以考虑包括增强智能或采用生殖技术在内的技术应用，这些都是值得探索的重要领域。

Payments are vital because when dealing with substantial capital formation, funds are heavily regulated, making it difficult to integrate cryptocurrency. Particularly if the recipient is dealing in fiat currency, but if both sides transact in cryptocurrency, it simplifies matters. More flexible and permissive regulations regarding fund formation could represent a significant change.

Legal systems function much like software in the real world, reinforced by actual practices, creating considerable leverage. This could also include enhancements like boosting intelligence or employing reproductive technologies, which are worth considering.

Eggy 

你如何看待当前初创企业的努力？你觉得我们在不久的将来会面临哪些最大的障碍？

How do you understand the current efforts in startups? What do you think are the biggest obstacles that we are facing in the near future?

Niklas

我认为主要的障碍是缺乏准备接受挑战的企业家。我们迫切需要更多愿意领导这些计划的企业家。问题主要不在于政府；我们理解运作机制并已建立了谈判和相关程序的标准方法。虽然资本不是根本性障碍，但它确实带来了一些挑战。然而，我相信一旦有了有效的创始人，他们通常能吸引所需的资本。我们的成功在很大程度上依赖于可以展示的成就。

通过呈现引人注目的成功案例来证明我们的方法是行之有效的至关重要。我相信我们即将通过像Prospera、Vitalia和Minicycle这样的项目实现这类成就，尽管我们还未完全实现。这也是为什么我深度投入Prospera，因为它代表了成功展示的最佳机会。

I believe the biggest obstacle is the bottleneck in the availability of entrepreneurs willing to engage. We need more entrepreneurs who are prepared to take the initiative. The challenge is not necessarily the governments; we understand how the system operates and have templates for negotiation and similar processes. While capital is not the fundamental barrier—it does present some difficulties—I believe that with capable founders in place, they often attract the capital needed. We also rely heavily on successful showcases.

We need to demonstrate that our approaches are effective, showcasing startling examples of success. I believe we are nearing such achievements with projects like Prospera, Vitalia, and Minicycle, although we are not quite there yet. This is why I am deeply involved with Prospera, as it stands as the prime candidate for a successful showcase.

这类成功的潜在影响可能非常深远。例如，我们可能分享我们拥有史上最强大的投资保护措施的故事，这阻止了政府的干预。或者，我们可以讲述即使面临难以想象的敌对政府环境，我们如何幸存并茁壮成长的故事。这样的叙述可以极大地塑造人们的看法。在接下来一年半到两年的选举后，这种势头可能将我们的影响放大十倍。

The impact of such success could be substantial. The narrative could be that we have the strongest investment protections in history, yet the government could not displace us. Or, that we faced one of the most hostile governments imaginable, yet we not only survived but emerged stronger. Such stories could significantly influence perceptions. Following the elections in under two years, this momentum could potentially amplify the impact by tenfold.

Jiang

你认为这个社会会达到那些科幻小说中描述的富足状态吗？几百兆GDP的那种。

Do you think society will achieve abundance, as described in those fictions? Like one hundred trillion of GDP.

Niklas

我不认为有确定的结果，只有可能的场景。我还相信我们作为人类有巨大的机会实现空前的快速进步。我不认为存在任何不可克服的障碍，虽然许多动态因素和普遍的公共讨论可能会构成挑战，更不用说心理因素引起的对变革的恐惧了。

I don't believe there are certainties, only scenarios. I also believe that we, as humans, have a significant opportunity to achieve a rate of progress that's radically faster than ever before. I don't think there are any insurmountable obstacles, although there are many dynamics and general public discourse that could pose challenges, not to mention the common fear of change due to psychological factors.

Social Layer × Uncommons
Reporter: Eggy＆Jiang
Translator: Maymay
Edit:0614

👇文中图片来源
X @NiklasAnzinger
linkedin.com/in/niklas-anzinger-50031653
Vitadao.com
community.prospera.co/c/events/vitalia
lifespan.io/news/vitalia-living-the-longevity-dream

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